KE-Ratio as a guide
KE-Ratio as a guide
During the last couple of days we have made substantial progress on KE-Ratio and related data mining. Many thanks to @beaker007 and @slobberchops. We now have a tool to check and download data directly. https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/.
The first time I talked about KE ratio was in this post in last August.
https://peakd.com/hive-13323/@azircon/top-1000-hive-stakeholders-moments-of-pleasure-years-of-pain
Since then, we have come a long way! Major progress have been made last week. Please look up here and here. As a reminder, this is the way I describe KE-Ratio.
If I divide Author Rewards + Curation Rewards by Held HP, people who held more HP than they earn will have a fraction less than 1.0. Those who held less HP will have a fraction higher than 1.0. This is the Krampus Co-efficient! Or KE.
KE = (Author Rewards + Curation Rewards)/Held HP
The purpose of KE ratio is to look up hive account and try to estimate if the account is trying to invest in hive long-term. However, just like any numerical cut-off, it is neither perfect, not should be used blindly. One of the reasons I came up with this is to try and analyze how contest participants for Splinterlands behave as a hivian. However, if it is related to Splinterlands players, game assets must be taken into consideration. So I did. I first looked into SPS, but now we can look up any game assets thanks to @beaker007 's new tool. Below is the basic look at the table of 170 such participants who have received Splinterlands curation. The table is sorted by highest held HP to lowest held HP on a sample of 170 participants.
Top 30 HP
Bottom 30 HP
Please tell me what do you see? Let me help you:
- Average KE for top 30 HP holders is 1.45. This is a good number. They are holding hive and investing in the hive ecosystem. Please notice their Splinterlands assets. I highlighted Total SPS (Staked SPS + Liquid SPS) and Collection Power (a measure of held cards). They are color coded, green is good, red is bad. Except 4 accounts, the correlation holds up!
- Average KE for bottom 30 HP holders is 14.66! This is an order of magnitude higher number. They are the people I like to call EXTRACTORs. They are net negative to the hive ecosystem. Please notice their Splinterlands assets! None! There are NO Exceptions!
What now
I can do a variety of plots to prove this point over and over again. People can point out edge effects, borderline cases and which cut-off to use or not use, which other game data to use. All of that is fine and we can do that, but the point is if someone's KE is 2 and someone's KE is 20, there is a difference in their hive etiquette. And the difference is NOT in number but in long term investment mindset. That is what I am after with this analysis.
I am talking about an order of magnitude difference in a ratio. That is what I observe and demonstrated within the Top 30 and Bottom 30.
An average KE of 1.45 for the investors
An average KE of 14.6 for the extractors
Investors hold hive and game assets long term and should be treated as co-owners. Extractors are milking both ecosystems as a cash cow.
Now, who you vote and support is your choice. I can only show you the door, it is you who must walk through it.
For the extractors on the list, I request that you increase your HP and invest into yourself and the ecosystem.
- Do better
- Care more
- Start now
1.04 in my case...
good for you! congratulations.
This is great. Would love to see this KE-Ratio displayed next to folks names in PeakD, just like the reputation rating is shown today. This would be a fantastic additional info to display for folks that like to use when choosing who and how much to place their valuable votes on to reward those that help feed and support the growth of Hive!
I would support that!
That would have been cool if the ratio was displayed next to a name on PeakD and other front ends like Ecency, Leo, etc. It would give everyone voting a quick way to be confident that we are not voting for an extractor.
This is a great plan!
I like this idea a lot!
That is a good idea!
I hope curators in other games and communities will apply what has been done in Splinterlands.
Ohhh nooo i am still in number 33..
Need waiting a little bit longer till reach top 30
well top 30 on this sample dataset doesn't give you any perks :)
but do consider investing in the ecosystem long term.
Yep i will do investing in hive more, i still having my financial plan on hive.
heheh
Just need to be patience and consistent on hive
Hey Azircon, thanks for the post. Please correct me if I am wrong, but according to my strategy, I am helping to push the HIVE ecosystem. I started back in October 2024 writting posts related to Splinterlands. ALL the rewards I got thanks to blogging and also connecting to other PeakD/ Hive users has been reivested into my favourite game SPLINTERLANDS! I love this strategy and thanks to that, I have been able to get some really nice cards! I don´t think there is nothing wrong with my strategy, as I am exchanging HBD for DEC.
Any feedback is much appreciated! Thank you and the rest of Splinterlands team, I LOVE THIS GAME (and also HIVE and PEAKD)!
yes, this is good. Please continue to invest in hive.
I have the same KE! As far as I understand, if you have the 50/50 Rewards (HP and HBD), you can't really go below that 1,98 - except for converting HBD into HIVE and then power up, or power up HIVE from delegation-rewards (I think that's how I got to 1,98).
HBD is not counted, as it is of private profit for the holder (as are the interests), I learned that in the last post.
As long as we keep the HP-rewards staked, we won't go above the KE of 2, so we should be fine :-)
I personally want to reach my goal of 100 HBD, and then I'll start converting again. From the converted HBD, half will be staked, half will go into SPL, more or less. That should bring me to more or less KE=1,5 , over time.
The extractors and the abusers ruined sl for players like me. I really wish I could play like before with just dec instead of all the other complications and get cubes or chickens as rewards. That era is over. 🥹
How are you doing Sayee? Long time no see.
Yeah, I know what you are saying, I have been trying to fix things for a long time, but this is like pushing a boulder uphill alone!
Thanks. I had to deal with real life problems. Now better and back to hive but SL slipped away. I can understand the frustration
I went onto the site yesterday and it was broken, glad everything is fixed now
It is going great. Amazing what our dude accomplished just a couple of days! You can even download lists from there now.
It lists ever commenters from any posts.
For example, your this post with lots of comments
https://peakd.com/2025/@livinguktaiwan/the-good-the-bad-the-sad-and-the-ugly-of-hive
These are unique commenters
this is their list
akipponn bilpcoinbpc bozz shanibeer shortsegments alex-rourke anonymous02 danzocal iamlovelykate makerhacks nanixxx omarrojas riverflows steevc lizanomadsoul magicmonk mengao pardinus pizzabot tonyz ydaiznfts blanchy dbooster grindle harbiter libertycrypto27 minismallholding tengolotodo whitneyalexx worldmappin
and their plot
All directly at that website
and the data in tablular format
Holy cow!! That's powerful. It connects into the engagement territory, and ties in with request that I put to @louis88 a few days ago
https://peakd.com/development/@louis88/any-ideas-for-little-helpers#@livinguktaiwan/re-louis88-sqm6yx
Btw, I just tried another post of mine, and got this back
LOL!
Read instructions and delete the first part. See here
Not a high priority for me, but i can try to find the permlink in a url.
Also good to note this is only with a depth 1 (so no comments on comments) @azircon
Yeah, I figured that.
All good, I didn't read everything, the permalink part got lost in the details. I just read the first line "This is the end part of an URL" and ignored everything else 🙃
I guess I am doing pretty good if I am sitting at right around 1.0 exactly!
Yep. You are perfect. Perfect base case :)
Will the Splinterlands curators use KE-Ratio in determining the weight of their contest upvotes now that this is part of the rules?
As I said; since hive is decentralized, I can't ask anyone to do anything.
I can just show the way.
Wow, the bottom list doesn't own almost any SPS, that's crazy considering they're all splinterlands players, so that brings us to the question how they are able to participate... Just rent everything?
I hate to say
I told you so!
nop,
doesn't even rents. Most doesn't play the game. Some doesn't even have a spellbook.
Just farms the contest posts with shitposts and farms vote.
On pc now, KE 3.88 that's probably because I used to liquidate everything in to SPL assets (never extracted anything outside of Hive or Splinterlands) but of course SPL assets are down tremendously, which is fine, it brings me joy 😁
At least 3.88 is closer to the investors average than to the extractors average, I'll keep working on that!
I hope these accounts don't get upvotes asap
Pay attention to this plot
KE along X-axis , and SPS holding along Y-axis (log-scale). Size of the circle is CP.
Notice Bravetofu and star-shroud? They are distorting the plot, right?
That is what you seek for! Distort the plot to the upside.
That's me! buying SPS monthly as well as earning trough play of course.
well, thanks for your work, interesting and good this has been brought to everyone's attention
Interesting Tool! Already saw some screenshots in the Splinterlands Discord Server and yea, it just makes totally sense to keep investing in hive and it's ecosystem instead of just leeching out stuff and ran away with it. I guess a rating of 0.87 means i'm good to go :D
The Comment-Tracking Solution is likely what @livinguktaiwan mentioned and yea - awesome job! What i would like to see is a function to upload a .txt file with usernames commaseparated or in each line to mass-check stuff - informations of each users KE_Ratio will be tracked down as custom_json on chain to keep track of users progress while time goes by - for example - i have a list of 1000 active users and their KE Ratio today - i want to see if they made progress in one week - one month and a quarter - to see if people keep leeching or turning into a good hivian :) my 2 cents to an awesome tool.
Edit: Oh, just came into my mind - extend the script to see loyality of all active or none active inleo users :D would love to see such stats aswell.
yes, you are good to go. No problem there :)
yes LUT got what she wanted I think, just was talking to her.
Yes sequential check and progressive plot will be easy to generate and helpful.
I am not keen on checking LEO, as majority of LEO is just farmers, I hate to be depressed.
Wow this is really interesting to see. I stumbled on it by chance.
I was not aware that I had received so much (as a total number) but I knew it was a decent chunk of change and almost completely pushed my Splinterlands account forward over the past 2 years or so.
Prior to the summer, I was holding onto most of my HP but repositioned into land. Financial issues hit offline so I sold off most assets. I am in the process of rebuilding now.
I don’t like being in the bottom 30 - or the top extractors. That is not what I believe in.
I’ll be looking to change that situation sooner than later because I love Hive and the community we have here.
Sorry to those who feel I am an extractor. I am working to change that for the future.
I'll be making posts dedicated to HP for period of time to try and catch up a bit.
It is just a spreadsheet. It can't think. It doesn't have humanity, we do.
Every person's life situation is different, and I am empathetic to that. Numbers are based on formulas, and certain thing comes to the top or bottom. I am just doing a data mining, this not directed at any person. I hope you understand that.
Totally understand. Numbers don’t lie and it’s not pretty to look at.
I can do more and will.
By the way, I do not see any land holding
Correct. As mentioned, I repositioned into land before needing to sell assets due to finances.
I really like that tool, thank you. I feel a lot better now taking HBD to buy DEC/Cards. And thank you for using it the smart way, and not as a "fix" determinator. As you say, there are too many variables. But it's a good guide to keep a check on things.
Newbie-Question - are assets in liquidity pools also counted?
No
That is too many things, and I have shown that the result does not change.
Thought so, thank you for the answer!
This is good news and makes things allot more transparent for those who want to go that extra mile before deciding to cast their vote or deciding who is or whom isn't here for solely extracting. I believe those going that extra mile should also consider HBD holdings. If the value is still onchain then its not extracted. For me value shifting (Positive) is not even close to being the same as extracting. The KE is a good guideline but as you pointed out has its limitations. Its always best to not automatically assume someone with a less than stellar KE ratio is an extractor due to the many other factors and opportunities Hive has to offer. Your graph tells me one thing for certain about my own account and that is I need more SPS and Hive (can never have enough). I appreciate the work you put into the formula and presentation of such.
https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/ that is one cool site, kudos to those who built it. I can't wait to see the other Hive Assets (gaming or otherwise) that might be added.
The conclusion remains the same.
An order of magnitude high KE ratio means we are looking at an extractor.
There are no exception. Considering all game and hive related assets.
HBD data is here. I decided NOT to include HBD, because it only helps the individual holding the HBD. If an individual hold HP and votes fairly, the value is distributed. That is better for the ecosystem.
Regardless, there is no example of any high KE holder holding any meaningful HBD.
There's always exceptions; I'm not going to go searching for one as that would require for me to highlight someones account that I think is a good Hiven but others might not. I don't know what a An order of magnitude high KE ratio means to you so I can't comment further than that.
I seen it on the site. I did not see any other gaming assets listed aside from Splinterlands. Regardless of any of that the site is impressive. I'll be using it in the future.
Of course we each are free to factor in what we want to or don't want to. While I agree that holding HP + fair voting is better overall for the ecosystem I don't agree that Holding HBD only benefits the holder (I will include such in my factors and hope others consider the same) due to the alternative option (3) shipping that HBD or equivalent in HIVE off-chain to exchanges. To me those who choose to hold HBD are deciding to keep value onchain and while not as good for the ecosystem as HP used to fairly vote its a magnitude better than value shifted off chain and that should be a positive or at least a neutral consideration imo. Thats the great thing about HIVE or any online community. Lots of different opinions get shared along with knowledge and eventually a better understanding of such is attained by those who interact. Once again thanks for the engaging post and your attention to my comments.
You are welcome. People can research as per your points and act accordingly.
This is a fascinating post and tool. My own KE Ratio probably reflects that I have been exploring Communities and Tribes, and in the process purchasing and staking their tokens. I will say a relative minnow it appears to be substantially easier to have a stellar KE Ratio.
The more I work through the mechanics and communities on Hive, the newer I feel. There is a lot of history here, and many individuals and groups have made contributions to the functionality, content, and social bonds here. The more I explore the more I also realize the wide range of divergence there, or the different conceptual models for the Hive ecosystem.
Yes if you are a minnow and don’t do mumbo-jumbo with your account it’s relatively easy to have a low KE ratio. That should be the default. It’s the other end that is hard to do
Interesting stuff, I’m looking to grow both my HP and splinterlands assets, looks like I have a 0.19 KE at the moment!
I am a bit confused, if I got 0.1 the ratio, is good or bad? The higher is the worst, right?
0.1 is excellent
They eyes says it all, the lower the number is better, i have not seen users with negative numbers, see if we can break it 🤣
NIIIIICE!!!
I saw you on there and I was like "Hey I know them :P"
Wow, that's an amazing KE
This tool is awesome. Any chance of open-sourcing at least parts of the code for this? @beaker007 @slobberchops I would absolutely love to read a post about how this works in detail!
Edit: Just noticed the github link in the app. Still would love a post about it!
You tagged the right person. I don’t think there is anything secretive here
Its public on github so opensouce, no secrets only the database login :).
That is done with HiveSQL for you a peace of cake, with you python knowledge.
https://github.com/gamerbeaker007/BeeBalance
Still need to make a readme and post will come when its more complete. its usable but much code needs to made better 🤣
Looking forward to it!
I've found that making posts about my code makes me question it more than otherwise. Also gives a bit of motivation for cleanup of "ugly-but-works" code parts for me 😅
Yeah that is holding me back 🤣🤣. Especially the SPL estimated $ is really, lets put nicely, not such great code :(.
Great summarize post again 😍.
Love to see that its being used.
And again thanks to @slobberchops for recommending HiveSQL made it ten times quiker to develop this.
Can we have buttons that can let me list top 1000 SPS holders as a list and all their data? Top 2000...
Might not understand you totally. you mean the richlist of all SPSP holders like this:
https://api.splinterlands.com/players/richlist?token_type=SPSP
or do you mean a button of the top list of user of this data?
Exactly, the first, the API link.
But top 1000 or 2000 etc
SPSP though, but the table will have rest of the data attached obviously
I can add a button todo the analyses with the top 200 SPSP holder
Not 1000 or 2000 no api has that.
I basically want to be able to recreate this post/plots every month. To be able to check if population is complaint and moving in the right direction
https://peakd.com/hive-13323/@azircon/hive-holding-of-splinterlands-players-20
Oke where did you get this data from, do you know which api is used?
peakmonsters richlist or spl api?
SPL
Yabapmatt extracted it for me
Ps but I don't know how he did it :)
I can do it with a static list of user you provide or the top 200 SPSP holders as far as i can see now.
Yeah but just top 200 is not enough.
Need at least top 1000, if not higher
It takes a while to run for top 200, if we enable this button and people are smashing on it might cause problems!
But its something like this you expect?
Maybe someone else have a idea how to retrieve richlist for 1000 members
I don’t think many are interested in this type to data. Even I would probably interrogate once a month.
The reason of top 1000 SPSP is because top 200 is simply not deep enough, currently it is 683820 based on your last pull. Lots of key players have SPSP less than that. Also it’s the deep part of the list I am more interested in. Top 200 are people I mostly I know personally:)
Hey I'm in second place with a very good KE. In fact I reinvest everything I earn on HIVE and SPS. I believe a lot in Hive and Splinterlands, which is why I have a long-term view! In the chart is not considered HIVE liquid (I don't know if this parameter will affect the KE)
@tipu curate
Upvoted 👌 (Mana: 24/54) Liquid rewards.
Clearly that paid off. On this test case you are in excellent standing!
Thanks 🙃
Thank you @beaker007 for the continuous support to the community. 😊
Thanks @viniciotricolor, nice to see you again, are you still playing?
Yes, I still play guild Brawl matches.
Nice 💪
Thank you so much for all the effort you put into growing the Splinterlands ecosystem and for treating all of us as co-owners! 🙌 Your perspective truly captures the spirit of this community. Splinterlands isn't just a game—it's a revolution, and the solid the ecosystem is, the better for all of us! 🌟 Let's keep building together! 💪🔥
BTW can I know my KE indicator! $PIMP
You are welcome.
KE is a public number now. Everyone is talking about it.
Check yours. Check everyone’s and spread the word
Happy getting a 1.93 and will work to improve! As I work with KPI's love all the effort you are making behind the scenes! For sure will take into account! #Vonak
Ok AZ... I gotta know the metric...
My KE is the lowest in the top 30... Green. Makes sense.
I have the second most CP... Yellow.
I have the most $SPS... Also Yellow.
HAHAHAHA I kid - please, it is satire... but I was curios as to why some are Green vs my Yellow (the metric)
I am grading on the curve :) Color scale is dynamic.
Get yourself on this plot and you are the boss
I am a tiny dot on that plot... but I am on there LOL 😁
Nop Captain! :)
Top 200 taps out at 683K
You ain't there yet, but close :)
Gave you something to work on.
This is a really cool tool and I’ll take a look to see how I can get some data myself. I’ve certainly been interested in figuring out what the number people I like are - are they builders or are they leeches? Mostly builders I would think but I’ll have to give it a run!
Take this post of your for example
https://peakd.com/hive-150329/@cmplxty/dwindling-and-reserve
these are the unique commenter on that post (nested comments are not included)
copy those names and paste in the bee balance page
There you have it!
That's awesome! I like that all you have to do to search multiple people with it is to separate it by a space. I know some query stuff gets upset with that and want a , or ; but this is pretty smooth.
Really great output as well, I will certainly be using this one often! I've bookmarked it for sure.
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STOPI think I have taken quite amount of author rewards to buy SPL cards and other HIVE games, includidng that "SCAM" psyberx which costed me more than $300... But hey., My KE is 0,92, still below 1. I thought it would be 2 or 3..
so with that condition I can relate seeing people who have KE between 2-5 but for people who have KE 10+? Maybe they are in some sort of trouble so they power down, however I see most of the case aren't like that, They transfer our regularly. I guess this is the different between people who write either for fun or to get support vs people who are milking out.
Let's hope more splinterlands writers embrace this not as a rule, but more as a form of etiquette. But of course... can't be too naive here, we are dealing with humans.
KE = 3 cut off is very generous and these are not my words :) You seem to agree with that looks like
Yes, I find it hard to disagree if there are solid arguments and data
the KE ratio is a very cool statistic, I will try and hope to keep my KE rating as close to 1 as I can :)
It's not particularly hard to keep your KE low. If you don't do mumbo-jumbo with your account it is likely stay close to 1 with normal activity
Mine is 1.61
That’s decent. But now check your community. What about people who posts and get voted at hive learners community?
@azircon, I am not an HL curator. My work primarily involves managing critical tasks, especially those related to emerging changes. Additionally, I handle certain anti-abuse matters that others are unable to manage.
I will forward the feedback.
No worries! Thank you for letting me know
Under 1! Do I win a prize? 😃
Thanks for all your work on this. Very cool tool.
You do! Guess how you get my vote? Kidding :)
Good, right?
Meh,...
Damn!
How is mine that low then? :D
I think I have only taken out 200 Hive in total in 7 years for Cub xD
I bought in and traded for some.
Hive-engine used to have volume.
Ah alright. ye I invested like 50$ 7 years back or so, thats all
When I buy other tokens on Hive-Engine my KE rating drops right? I find it to still be a pretty good metric even now, and it's very cool.
I take HIVE a lot like a game (Mostly a Splinterlands player xD) so to have metrics and ratings like this, give me a lot of motivation to get my scores to be better and better.
Thanks for this!
Not a minute too soon, thanks.
Maybe we could've headed more off at the pass had they known who they were voting on.
I asked peakd to add this when you made the first post about it, but, well,...
I've been saying voting rewards to extractors is slitting our own throats for a long time.
There are no bad posts, only bad curators.
Yes, and there are bad curators, because they don’t care?
It's easier to just judge content than it is content providers.
Judging content providers requires more clicks.
And you are correct I first introduced KE back in August last year, but getting regular data as I wanted for various segments and list was nearly impossible without any tool. Only last week we made a breakthrough on data mining
This is a cool tool!
Great, I'm among the top 15 HPs!
Good for you.
The ratio using total rewards by total HP can give you some types of feelings about a certain user for sure! But is still can be deceived… imagine if a user receives 5hbd of rewards today with hive at 0.40$ . If he withdraws today 2hbd today and if tomorrow hive becomes 0.20$ and aconvert to hive he will get more hp compared if he powered up when hive was 0.4$ . So in the end a user can. Get lower ratio even withdrawing part of the rewards.
Yes. But will there be a difference between a user of KE =1 and KE=10? Yes. That is what I am after.
👍👍
This was one of Hive's best initiatives in years, not because of its complexity but because of its problem-solving. It has always been discussed that reputation could not be the only way to measure it. I believe that each community defining a way to measure KE will greatly help to understand what each user contributes to growth.
!PIZZA
$PIZZA slices delivered:
@danzocal(3/10) tipped @azircon
I'm not sure I understand this analysis. HiveBuzz just told me I've received more than 37000 HP as payout for my posts, comments, and curation a few days ago, and I'm almost to 57,000 HP, so simplifying the math a bit, my KE would be approximately 37/57, or about 0.649, correct?
A lot of that is because when we forked from
Steemit,I traded all mySTEEMholdings for HIVE as fast as I could power down and get out of Justin Sun's orbit. And that would make my KE on the old chain pretty astronomical because I probably still have a few stakedSPout of several thousand earned, right?You are 100% correct. You do understand the math. It’s a simple math. No big deal :)
Your KE ratio is exceptionally good.
https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/
Type any hive account and find out :)
I'm still not sure what this means, though. It's still just a single data point in isolation.
It a a net measure of your current status of your rewards relative to the HP you hold. Yes, it’s a single measure. There is really nothing more to understand. :)
But who said you have to look at it in isolation? I am NOT looking at it in isolation and having fun looking at it across various dimensions
I can confidently say if someone’s KE is 10, his/her behavior is different compared to a person with KE=1
So it's basically a quick measure to see if someone is here to contribute or exploit, with the caveat that it doesn't account for people who need to power down for unexpected expenses and other situational effects.
What if you added a modifier for account age and post count? If someone was active for 3 years, powered down 6 months ago, and returned to powering up, that should mean something different from someone who started posting last month and is frantically powering down every HP they earn to send it to an exchange.
All these measures that you suggest are there in the data. Yes they can be investigated and added as a metric/plot/dimension
Is that reasonable or bad?
reasonable
I still don't understand this properly, if I do PowerUP will I lower this score? Or just through curation?
If you power up hive, it will lower your score. It will make it better.