RE: Land SPS distributed to those who have surveyed - (A Splinterlands Proposal)
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Speaking of greed... those who do NOT vote for this proposal may qualify as greedy in our opinions.
The SPS airdrop for land was meant to be an intermediary step (as a side note that proposal in my opinion should have never happened but people voted on it because "hey free money" and i have come to terms with it) but the concept of getting money for no action simply holding something most people bought a long time ago seems greedy.
It seems that SPS should go to those who actually participate in Land not simply hold it. SPS goes to those who play. Those who risk by putting into the liquidity pools or those who risk staking for 4weeks (which btw is not that big of a risk)
Well for many months people got money just for holding land because real land usage didn't exist and there was no way to participate. My only regret was not doing this proposal like 1-2 months ago when deeds came out. But when surveying comes out people can and should participate in interacting with land.
There is a case for saying that: Wanting more SPS and NOT participating is the real GREED!
But i'm interested in hearing from @davemccoy ... he doesn't strike me as being this greedy maybe he just doesn't understand the "money for nothing" greed I see when people vote against the proposal.
I originally voted for it thinking it was pushing people to "claim" their land. That I don't mind doing, I do think people should be encouraged to cooperate and claim their land.
But when I was told that I misread it, and it wasn't for "claiming" but instead for "surveying" the land, then I changed my vote.
I like the concept of encouraging people to claim their plots. That only takes time and effort, but not any money. Thus if people are paying attention then the minimum they can do is spend some time and money to claim their plots.
But I don't like the concept of forcing people to survey their plots (which forces them to spend money before they may be ready to). Thus if someone is saving up to get some of the packages, and it might take them 30 to 60 days, then I don't think they should be forced to choose between saving up their money for the special packages and LOSING their SPS or not getting the packages and getting their SPS.
I think we have been very patient (as customers of the game), so I don't see why we would all the sudden want to see players be forced to make an early decision on the surveying.
So the TLDR version is:
I'm FOR stopping distribution to those that can't spend their time and energy to claim their land, but I'm AGAINST stopping distribution to those that aren't ready to spend money to survey their plots til the 60 days they have for the special packages are over.
I'm not being greedy and voting to keep my SPS distribution to just sit there and collect SPS, as I'm very happy to vote for removal of all SPS rewards until the land is live if that was a proposal too. (in addition of course to the fact that I would vote for this if it was simply claiming the land plots). So in my case its not greed at all, I just feel bad for those people that don't have the money liquid to survey their land because they want to get the special packages.
NOTE: I have what I need to survey my land so this won't affect me either way, but I do know of quite a few people that are scrambling right now to get the money they need to buy either 1, 2, or 3 of the packages.
NOTE 2: I also think if we force people to decide before they can adequately come up with the funds, then they will just not purchase the early packages and we will LOSE their spending of DEC in the process. Its not a huge deal, but it will be a missed opportunity to have more participation.
The one for claiming land should have been done like 3 months ago... everyone was too greedy to get it done back. We're like 3 months behind the times.
You know better than to call it "forcing" them i'm disappointed with the manipulative rhetoric. Like the game is forcing me to play 24 games a day... I have played none this week because i chose to do other things do people feel forced to play? Maybe some do... but i don't think you would use that rhetorical wording for getting that SPS distribution so why use it with this?
People can decide to be involved in any stage of the land system they want... the majority of us are saying to get SPS we believe they should be involved in the most up to date version of land. They're TWO versions behind... not even one. They're 2 versions behind and I can't think of anything but greed that makes them just want to keep getting their free lunch without having to do anything at all. Well in land 1.5 it's gonna be a huge wakeup call at least this is a baby step towards that wake up call and stop the entitlement mindset.
If this fails and you want to stop distribution to ALL for land that's great. Land holders got way way too much for doing nothing besides spending $8-10 in a pre-sale they have been way too rewarded already. So yeah I'd vote for you on that... but that would not get funded very easily and this proposal will very likely get funded so hopefully we don't have to worry about it.
Again people can wait to survey it's totally fine... but now there would be more incentive. Otherwise there is NO incentive to survey until june/july. Land is coming out ... it's done the stupid free SPS to holders should be over.
I was not trying to be salty, nor did I intend to offend you @jarvie . You tagged me for my opinion and I replied out of courtesy to you.
I did vote for the proposal when I thought it was simply for claiming the plots (which I supported).
I only gave you my explanation as to why I didn't like the proposal as written. There is no intent on my part to use manipulative rhetoric, as I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I only stated my thinking since I was asked.
I also would point out that I didn't make this comment as its own post comment, instead I just replied to you. If this passes I won't be harmed, so I don't have any objections whatsoever to people voting how they feel.
I realize that written words are sometimes misinterpreted, so hopefully you mis-read mine. I don't want to disappoint you (or anyone else) on this issue. I don't want to manipulate anyone on my part towards the outcome, and I hope you understand we just disagree on one very minor point.
I actually wanted this to pass as of about 4 hrs or so ago. Not until someone told me that I read it wrong did I even consider voting no. And I'm not asking you to change the wording or do it as I would like, I'm simply voting for what I think is right based on the reasons I've given above.
I have much respect to you for caring about the community, this proposal shows you do too. I am not doubting your intentions, and believe we wouldn't even have a game if you weren't involved from the beginning.
I'm happy to discuss further at any time and honestly I hope I've cleared up my position on it because I definitely don't want you to be disappointed in me for trying to hurt you or your proposal in any way.
It's all good i chose to discuss with you because i respect you and also because i thought it was so out of character to vote for what i guess some of us consider to be the greedy choice. (but I guess to kinda steelman what i think is your position is that you're looking out for the economics of people that will be impacted by not getting a few more months of easy sps or that they'll feel anxious about not spending money for starter packs when they do their free surveying)
I guess i brought you in because Sometimes discussing with people that we have no connection with or background with leads to so many problems and i was wanting to discuss with somone.
After looking through the list of voters it does seem like it's mostly some dog and cat accounts that are downvoting it haha... kinda funny.
Also when i did the proposal i really didn't know if it would pass it certainly wasn't a sure thing... i guess i should be impressed by the community that it's doing as good as it is.
I completely understand the points you guys are making and I definitely think the "giving out SPS for just holding land" is not productive.
Also if I knew the timeframe of implementation gave people at least 1/2 the time the game DEVs are giving, then I'd vote yes on this. In other words, I think people should have at least 30 days from the time they "CAN" survey their land to raise the funds to do so. That would be half of the 60 days those packages were available.
I think the proposal will pass as is, so of course there is no need to change anything for me. Also I get that people feel that its wrong to just collect SPS and have no intention of ever playing the game. I not only get it, but I agree 100% that's wrong.
The only thing I think you have wrong is where you said this:
I don't want people to get their "easy SPS", so this particular point is wrong.
But I do feel there are many players that have to make choices between assets in-game and also in real life, so I do believe that anxiety is real and I can sympathize with them.
Glad we are good and I don't mind at all if this passes if that's what the community wants. I have many friends on both sides of this argument.
ps... I didn't vote my bigger accounts against this because I like the spirit of the proposal (getting people off their asses and paying attention to earn money), even though I wish it was for claiming the land instead of surveying it.
I guess I don't understand why the distinction is important. This is a bandaid that must get ripped off at some point. For some reason the argument is that people who are paying up to 30k DEC per plot must continue to subsidize the SPS rewards for the people simply claiming or holding tokens (and make no mistake, it creates a subsidy for the laggards). That doesn't seem right. Rewards after surveying is a natural extension of investing in land to the highest level to maintain rewards. There will never be a comfortable time to stop paying rewards to people, but we need to advance the ball.
I think there are people that are not sure what they are going to do yet, do they buy 1, 2, or 3 starter packages? If so, how are they going to pay for it?
The game devs are giving them 60 days to make that decision and not requiring them to do so on day 1. They are doing that for a reason. I think the main reason is many people don't make "snap decisions". Since those type of people have been patient and waited for 2 years, I feel its only fair that we give them some time to adjust once it is "live" (for surveying). The reason I feel so is because it will require expense from their pocket and I want them to make a good decision and not feel rushed.
So the difference is simple. Claiming the land is an act that doesn't cost money, so anyone can do it and it only requires effort and time. But surveying the land will cost money, and since people will be spending money then I want them to feel they confident in their selections.
The difference is very minor in time - in my eyes 30 days is plenty of time for anyone to get comfortable with the outlay (or not).
I see the point of view that they've all been given SPS for many months now, so its time to cut it off. But I would say why can't we give people 30 days from when land goes live to enact this? That seems like a fair compromise.
If this passes as is, then its cool. I'm just letting you know what would make me change my mind and vote for it. And the funny thing is that if the land goes live on Monday (which Matt said is possible), then this proposal will eat up 2 weeks anyways PLUS the devs will have to code the change. So what I'm asking for isn't even a big deal if you think about it. Its maybe 10 days or so if the devs can code it real quick. So to me I don't see why just stipulating that it will go into effect no less 30 days from when land surveying is live is a big deal. I think 10 days to get much more buyin from those that might not be ready to decide is a very small amount time.
Again though I'm not mad or trying to put a stick in the spokes, I'm just telling you all what I hear from others and how I feel about the concept. I'm happy to make people do things to get their SPS, I don't like the passive income being distributed this way either.
Hope this answers my thoughts, but always happy to explain more if you want me to @joshman :)
That seems like a fair compromise to me. I think that's one that could easily be inserted into this existing proposal.
yes that's my point. That way everyone has at least 30 days to "survey their land". I say at least because the DEVs might not be able to code it before then.
I would definitely push for it hard if that was the case, I'm 100% in agreement that people shouldn't just be getting passive SPS to just sit there and not participate.
I don't get this... are people that greedy they can't leave a single solitary day without claiming their dang SPS? Not even if it helps the entire game, not even if the original intent of SPS for Land was to reward active participants? It's just so dang selfish it hurts me to think about. Just so stinking sad.
FOMO is real. Many people would rather make a bad decision rather than miss out on something they feel they are entitled to.
Its human nature, so don't let it get to you @jarvie :)
Good people can disagree on priorities.
You know what is sad? Bots and waiting years haha
This proposal is doing my head in. i need more time, gunna vote no.
Change it to that and i'll vote yes
Send all land SPS to DAO - Will vote yes for that also
Yes that's my point too @michealb ... I've reflected it to both @jarvie and @joshman .
I agree here if we can't do the above.
Make that proposal from the council right now. Let's see how it goes. I'll vote for it as well. Because this proposal may not pass.
you can edit your proposal and it would work. I think it would pass too. I will vote for it and @michealb said he would too.
If you don't want to edit it though, I will definitely bring it up the the council. But its not necessary imo, since you can easily edit yours to include the start date of this being at least 30 days from the day the surveying is live.
I do think it will pass if you did that.
Pretty sure that is highly frowned upon to edit a proposal that hundreds of people have already voted yes on. (You can edit quickly maybe even first day but not on the 4th day just because things aren't going as well anymore)
Also i personally wonder if it would even pass still... we have had months to prepare for starter packs I think the talk about 30 days after is just a bluff and downvoters really just don't want to miss a single day of a free lunch. So I'm not willing to make that bet with my own 100k dec but if the council does i'll vote on it...
I see just so much greed from the downvoters because I have looked and i see they have a bunch of un-deeded land in great proportion and my pessimism says they come in here and say they want 30 extra days and BS us but in our heart we believe they're just grandstanding and really it's just greed and not wanting to miss any days at all even if it helps the entire game progress. They'd rather the whole ship go down than them not get first class room with a view.
Jarvie, this is a preprosal, not the official proposal. The purpose of a pre-proposal is to get a rough the idea out. Its just my opinion, but I think editing a preproposal is fair. SPL has edited their own preproposals too in the past.
Remember that that the only vote that matters is the proposal itself which is unalterable.
But adding in a provision of how it will be implemented doesn't impact the gist of your proposal at all.
Of course this is my opinion, you and others may certainly disagree.
He answered in the live qa on the day of 1.5 saying that my proposal would be very easy. I assume turning it all off is even easier. But could be good to ask.
ok... I edited my reply after thinking about your point regarding editing. See @joshman's reply, I think he sums up exactly how I've seen it done. Spl even edited their own proposal in the past when they had community feedback.
We should not be allowed to edit proposals once they've been submitted. You could dramatically alter something at the 11th hour that way to force in anything you want.
Terrible precedent to set. I'm frankly shocked that's even possible.
This is just a pre-proposal, not the actual proposal. The part where the language can't be altered is when its officially a proposal.
I think everyone agrees the actual proposal should be set in stone. I see no issue editing a pre-proposal as long as those edits are transparent and obvious. I think it's actually a good opportunity for the community to help tailor the preproposal in advance of the real proposal to avoid people wasting DEC for minor changes. If people are voting actual proposal based upon what they read in the pre-proposal, well that is pretty dumb anyways.
yes exactly my point... @jarvie he states this better than I did.
I don't think some people realize they are two different things.
Still though, if there is discussion and voting happening then any modifications should be made in a new draft.
We agree on that this shouldn't happen. Look at that. hahaha
I agree Jarvie, its clear that the people who have voted no to this proposal are not prepared to survey and get their land working immediately :)
The wonderful thing about blockchain is that everything is transparent and motive and be inferred. :)
i'm prepared to survey the land just cant afford all the starter stuff yet and need some time to do this. It seems to me to be good for the game for all of us to buy all the starter stuff. Maybe i got my head up my ass and am thinking totally wrong about this. i hate being rushed when making big financial decisions and feel really rushed since the white paper and this proposal came out. i might just not fully understand it all. fk knows
I think the intent of Jarvie's proposal is to accelerate the surveying progress by rewarding those who are willing to jump right in. While I've only got a tract (making it easier to do this preparation) - I'm still short, so I imagine that large region holders would not be keen to see their SPS rewards tumble proportionally to their ownership of land. I understand that.
A region was a seriously large commitment at the original release of land, and the white paper probably solidifies the fact that it is an enormous commitment to get it to produce at the optimal rate.
My view is that the risk for holding unsurveyed land is less than surveying it (like holding an unopened pack) - and people who take the risk (by surveying) should be rewarded more handsomely than those who do not, by way of getting a larger cut of that SPS rewards allocated to land.
agree! now give me a month to get enough funds to do this. stop the SPS flow, in fact take back all the SPS land has given me to date if that's the argument. X amount of SPS per day since ? plus vouchers = ? A lot less then what i'm thinking this will cost.
so my math says anyway :)
100% True, but for those who got land on Day 1, the SPS and Voucher returns have probably exceeded the cost of the land. :)
I am still about only 90% ready for my tract, at this point which is what is in the white paper, let alone the phases to come.
ALL THE REASONS
Since you've indicated you're on the fence and want to understand a bit more why to vote... i shall appeal to you.
DEC-B was announced jan 17
Starter packs were announced feb 9
White paper that re-emphasizes the need for those things has been out a bit now.
If this doesn't pass I'm not doing another proposal it'll be up to the sps council dudes like @davemccoy and their proposals aren't passing too often either. I don't know if they even have much of an appetite for this proposal... they have to be actually interested in the subject. We don't know the reason for @genepoolchlrn8r downvote... we only know that you and dave would vote in favor upon a change.
You literally have until april 9th to get dec-b
Will your getting ready time be after april 9th and you're willing to pay 20% more? (even more than that when you consider the pretty good discount for using vouchers to get dec-b)
And here's a final point on timing: Do we really think that they'll have have surveying out this tuesday? They have alluded to potentially taking another week to make sure everything is good to go. I have actually heard many people indicate they wouldn't be bummed if they take another week to make sure it's all good to go. Also this proposal will take another week and then even though it's easy it will have to wait for a tuesday to get implimented ... so it may not get done in one day and it will miss a tuesday and get implimented the following week.
You may not be fully ready but you'll be partly ready and you'll be able to survey a good chunk.
Also final reason is that this isn't gonna pass the proposal this just takes it to the stage of official voting. Maybe it still fails... maybe you still downvote it next round.
Maybe we see surveying comes out on this tuesday and people react a bit differently ... maybe they indicate to us how long surveying starter packs are gonna be available and maybe it's a short period anyway and that solves part of our problem and maybe we don't need this proposal quite as much. We give splinterlands team a bit of time to help solve part of the problem which is that there is NO reason to survey until june/july except for curiosity. And thus we're delaying major participating in land until june/july and delaying the impacts starter packs can have on the economy until then.
You made a point that I hadn't considered, if someone is going to buy any of the land packages then they will most likely use DEC-B. DEC-B will be finished on April 9th.
So anyone that is serious about considering the packages would make that decision by April 9th as well.
This proposal will take us to within a week of that date and it will take the DEVs some time to enact it.
So therefore, I will be switching my vote to YES and voting all my accounts.
Thanks for making the point and for making this proposal @jarvie
All good points. Getting this proposal to official voting stage for sure is the right thing. Starting to feel better about all of this.
thanks, I appreciate your time getting back to me 😀
what i always find amazing. that some people often use the word ``me'' in their arguments. but people don't want to realize that it's a selfish action. it doesn't matter if it's logical, right or wrong, because it's all about me.... :(
it is about me. cant talk for you nor should i try to. if i say we should all give SPS back etc that is talking for everyone which is B.S as it makes assumptions
if using me is considered selfish to you (which is about you)
I (me) am ok with that.
hope this makes sense, not sure i fully understood you correctly
i think you actually know that it would be right to distribute the sps only to measured land. but because YOU don't have the complete money for it right now. the wrong system should continue to run anyway. so if you have made the complete money for it liquid in 1 month, we are allowed to introduce the actually right system. imagine someone else needs 2 more years to have the money together. should we then continue to run the wrong system for 2 years? i thought with a lot of sps you also have a lot of responsibility to make the right decision. but apparently for some, a lot of sps is only good for pushing through their own interests. of course you have the right to do that! but honestly, i don't know what to make of it as a human being.
Your idea of using someone needing 2 years is not relative.
My interests don't aline with yours, or what you believe to be correct. happy to disagree.
gotta run. thanks for the convo
i must also acknowledge that we are in 2 different situations. for me, it is completely financially irrelevant whether the proposal goes through or not. because the amounts are so small that it is not even worth calculating. and so i can go completely free according to what i think is right.
but can it be good for a game/community if single persons act only according to their own interests, if they have more voting power than 100 000 other people in the community together?
id like to think that as many people as possible buying up all the starter packages with outside $ is good for the game. I'm thinking there are other people out there in the same boat as me, need a little more time to think, evaluate, find resources. Maybe i'm 100% wrong and just plain selfish . don't know sometimes haha :)
they should finish the land development first and we will happily survey it is as simple as that
Coming in the next few weeks to the survey stage. :)