SPS Governance Proposal - Adjust Listing Fees
The purpose of this proposal is to attempt to make the Splinterlands marketplace more sustainable by reducing low value transactions and offsetting network expenses. After the previous proposal to raise the rental floor to 1 DEC passed and was rejected by the team, I spoke to Matt to make sure that this proposal would be implemented if it were to pass.
Proposal
UPDATE 10/22/24
Based on feedback from the comments, I'm making the following change to this draft proposal:
If this proposal passes the listing fee for cards on the marketplace, both for sale and rental, will increase from 1 DEC to 5 DEC. The 5 DEC will be burned. This should help limit the aggressive repricing which increases infrastructure costs.
If this proposal passes the listing fee for cards on the marketplace, both for sale and rental, will increase from 1 DEC to 10 DEC. 5 of the DEC will be burned while 5 of the DEC will be sent to the Splinterlands team.
Notes:
This proposal was discussed as an alternative to another community suggested proposal which aimed to increase the market fee to 10% and to have 6% of all market sales go to the company for hosting the marketplace. There is another ongoing proposal that aims to make the market more sustainable in a different way. It is possible to pass both proposals and implement all changes or to pass neither.
Pros:
- Reduce transaction spam by increasing the cost of automated repricing.
- Burn 5 DEC
and pay the company 5 DECfor each market listing. - Make the marketplace more sustainable without increasing the overall market fee (currently 6%).
Cons:
- Listing fee goes up from 1 DEC to 5 DEC.
- Using automated services with aggressive repricing parameters costs more.
Neutral:
- Rentals still exist in perpetuity as long as they are rented once every 60 days for only one listing fee. Unless a card owner closes a listing to reprice a rental, they will likely pay no listing fee. This is good for card owners looking to rent at a fixed rate long-term but also means that floor rentals still tax the servers for essentially no fee.
I like the proposed change.
10 DEC sounds much, it's a 10x from what we have right now after all. But then again, that's only $0.01 to list a card - compare that to the fees you pay for trading on most other chains and it suddenly sounds pretty reasonable...
I also think some middle ground could be a better idea. I did like the idea of the 1 DEC minimum rental price, not sure why the team rejected that
We've been experiencing bad downvotes for a considerable amount of time and we're seeking answers. We're concerned about the control held by certain entities like Blocktrades, which delegates Hive power to accounts like Buildawhale, and Usainvote
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livinguktaiwan (79)in HiveFest • 2 days ago
He would never survive an hour at HiveFest now 🔪🔪🔪
https://hive.blog/hive-106258/@livinguktaiwan/re-slobberchops-skc63a
https://hive.blog/hive-106258/@slobberchops/re-livinguktaiwan-skc5h1
On Hive a significant issue exists with automatic upvotes consistently rewarding the same individuals day in and day out
We want to address the issue of downvoting. It has caused pain to many people, and we want to make sure it doesn't happen again reply to @jacobtothe
On Hive a significant issue exists with automatic upvotes consistently rewarding the same individuals day in and day out
We hope that those who genuinely care about Hive will reconsider their actions, as continuing down this path could inadvertently harm innocent users who are unaware of these issues
lol the Marky mark keeps dreaming
There's been a notable increase in frustration and concern among many users
Reply 2 @crimsonclad You may consider yourself clever
Reply to @crimsonclad
Consider revising the value plan, as it's not providing significant benefits to HIVE
The Value Plan, as it stands, seems to be a one-sided relationship with the HIVE platform, where the benefits are one-way
Actions indeed speak louder than words, a fact we've all observed individuals may talk a good game, a whole lot of shit, but their actions often expose their genuine nature LOL
We consider it unwise to engage in harmful actions, even if you think you can escape the repercussions
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The Hive Police aka Hivewatchers, are the real heroes of Hive LOL, aren't they?
Feast your eyes on Hive's trending page, what a load of trash
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Harry fam We're just here, laughing at the shenanigans on Hive! Sure, our content's getting downvoted, but hey, it's all part of the game LOL
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https://hive.blog/hivewatchers/@bpcvoter/shqkqc BNBNVCBC
I don't know what the conservative guess on how many transactions this would be, but I support it. We need to convince the team to enforce a 30 day rental maximum per transaction
regardless of how well the rental does.
Could we raise the price to 5 dec instead? A 10x increase seems a bit extreme to me. People trying to sell reward cards already have thin profits(or in many cases a loss) after paying to unlock them. 5 dec should be enough to reduce the spam, and if I am wrong we could always raise the price at a later date. There is a reason the federal reserve will raise or lower interest rates in small increments. Economies need time to adjust and don't adapt well to drastic changes.
In theory we can do whatever, but I'd point out that if people are selling at a loss they should probably just burn the card. There's really no point selling a card below burn imo.
Based on this and other feedback, I changed it to just a 5 DEC burn.
And I changed my vote, but I don't know if enough people will read the post again and do the same.
Right now junk CL cards entire sale price are around 12 DEC a card. The extra benefit of this is we might get millions of garbage cards burned.
From my understanding - unless it has changed...
Rentals do NOT exist in perp... if they are not rented during a 60 day period, they are removed from the rental market...
The floor rentals that cost 0.1 DEC (1/100th of a penny at peg) have been listed for over 2 years. They just sit on the floor price and never seem to hit the 60 day expiration.
Oh... many... MANY of mine have fallen off on my test account @pointonedec - which is where the idea of the 1 DEC Floor came from 😄
I am 100% against this. To start, the listing fee should have never been implemented for first time listings. It should only apply to a card being listed, after it had already been listed in the past X hours/days. Increasing it even further would be devastating in many ways. It encourages players to do deals outside the market, which increases the risk of scams.
I am ok with an increase of the listing fee for relisting, not for listing for the first time.
If this proposal 10 dec is only to hit relisting bots, your idea is much better Olaf.
Thanks! It makes much more sense to hit the mass relisters than everyone.
I like the idea mostly because it might stop some of the constant undercutting that's going on.
Free market will find a way around expenses if the expense goes up high enough. We are talking about a 10X increase. This is only a cent in fiat value. For those of us who have been spoiled by feeless transactions, $0.01 is still a lot of money. If this was only 2X of the price, I could support it. It could even be 3X. I have seen others express similar sentiments.
I reduced it to 5x based on this and other feedback. I know it's not as low as you are suggesting, just wanted to make you aware of the change.
I think 5 DEC is a better price.
Roughly equivalent to 1 Common card.
If 10 DEC is put on the listing twice, it is equivalent to burning 1 Rare card.
I feel it's a bit too expensive.
Updated to 5 DEC based on this and other feedback.
I’m definitely against this!
If our goal is to increase card ownership, raising listing fees is not the way to go. We already have the 1 DEC listing fee, which, in my opinion, has been sufficient to reduce transaction spam to an acceptable level.
This proposal effectively imposes a direct fee on owning cards. If someone wants to sell or rent cards, they will now have to pay even more, and that’s not the direction we should be taking.
Additionally, I believe this would negatively impact the rental market, especially for cheaper cards. If there's increased demand for cards on the rental market, many people might avoid relisting their cards due to the 10 DEC fee.
My estimate is that there are fewer than 20,000 listings daily. If anyone has more concrete numbers, please share them.
Assuming 20,000 listings per day:
20,000 * 10 DEC = 200,000 DEC
That’s 100,000 DEC burned and 100,000 DEC going to the team.
This would translate to roughly $3,000 USD monthly for the team, which, in my view, wouldn't make a significant difference. Keep in mind, we would likely see far fewer listings if we increase the listing fee. Even if we did maintain 20,000 listings, I don’t believe this change would be worth it.
Some concrete numbers would be helpful to assess this properly!
Market activity would likely decrease due to less card flipping. Rental prices might stay about the same since rentals only need to be listed once, but continuously increasing market and listing fees could eventually push third-party marketplaces to bypass the Splinterlands API for card sales or rentals.
If that happens, the official marketplace’s sales volume will drop, leading to fewer DEC burned and reduced revenue for the team.
So overall, I see this as a huge negative for the entire Splinterlands economy.
Just for the record, I'm not going to champion either of these proposals. I just wanted to provide some context here, I mainly suggested this as an alternative to the people that were asking for a 10% market fee. 1 cent listing fee seems much more reasonable to me than that. The DAO doesn't have to accept either proposal. If they're both bad, vote against them.
Come on just use POLLs first to get an idea of where people stand before we skip to proposals like this. This is crazy going straight to proposal like this. Or pay your 100k dec personally to make this proposal because it's something you strongly believe in.
i dont sell that much cards but i think 10 DEC is bit high.. 6 DEC will be better
Updated to 5 DEC based on this and other feedback.
Thank you for participating in SPS DAO Governance @clayboyn!
You can place or monitor SPS Stake Weighted votes for and against this proposal at the link below:
Link to this Pre-Proposal
Updated At: 2024-10-28 02:20 UTC
"New Proposal" = More money from Players to the Team.
Again
And Again
And Again
It was definitely players suggesting this, not the team. I don't think this one will really generate money for them as much as it would gate transactions, which could lower costs. The other one would actually generate revenue, but 10% fees is a lot (clearly I'm not the only one that thinks so).
Se uma proposta dessa for implementada é melhor procurar mercado de terceiros ou parar de comprar/alugar cartas no mercado de Splinterlands. 1 Dec já é caro.
I rent out a decent amount of cards. SO this would affect me, but still it doesn't bother me so much. If it was a proposal I'd probably vote for it. Most of the concerns I see being voiced seem speculative, whereas most of the benefits I see people listing seem solid and concrete. Anwyay jmo.
From pay-to-play we are going to pay-to-own.
Another thing, which we don't need right now.
What it would change? - Nothing.
There will be less and less transactions and there are not many at this moment.
I sold almost all my cards after "1 dec proposal", mainly 1 bcx cards I had thousands of them, but why I should have them to just pay more and more for trying sell them with profit?
Now you propose 10 dec to get angry even those, which not care before.
I am trying to understand why you try push fast changes like this and only reason why is, because new players will not have memory of what was before, but old players will lost their last interest in making deals on open market. if there in foresable future will be a way more new players than existing one, there is no problem, but what, if no?
What is better now?
Doing nothing with this and not lost players because of this 10x change or just trying implement this thing with poor efect.
The suggestion to raise market fees got brought up several times. I suggested this as an alternative solution because I figured 10% market fees would be as popular as the current voting suggests. Ultimately it seems neither is popular. Message received. Thanks for the feedback.
Please stop squeezing us players. Leave current fees as they are and please no more proposals such as these to increase costs.
Just for posterity, this is players/stakeholders suggesting the changes, I ran it by Matt so we didn't end up with another "1 DEC minimum rental price" situation (proposal that got rejected not long ago). Doesn't seem like they're passing anyway though, but I hear ya.
NOPE
Not hugely for or against this. It's not a massive amount in the grand scheme of things (1 cent at peg) but it feels somewhat unnecessary.
A few pieces of feedback for future similar "proposals":
(1) Run a poll first. You've done it for other topics but not for this one. Not sure why tbh. Seems based on community reaction that it definitely should've been run as a poll first.
(2) Give data on the expected gains. In this case, how much DEC is currently burned from the 1 DEC and how much would be burned/sent to the company if it changed to 10 DEC and transactions stayed the same (which is unlikely, but for comparison's sake)
(3) What is the primary objective of the proposal? Revenue for SPL or reducing network expenses? If it's the latter, then data should be shared on that. Can we estimate this would reduce network expenses from X to Y? If the delta is big, and that's the primary goal, perhaps there would be more supporters.
Thanks for the feedback. It was a community suggestion and clearly not a popular one. I am actually hoping to get the polls linked on the site with optional alerts which I think would be more useful.
Big scam. I´m still angry about last time! Proposal to raise rental floor to 1 DEC passed! Its not a Dao at all if team can still reject it! Just everything what is not in their favour they could reject and thats not how a dao work. Team have to do whatever the voters want.
I'll support any measure that reduces spam transactions and mass repricing which tax the servers.
If the economy was strong and SPS price was stronger, maybe. The market strength is NOT THERE to justify such an increase on an already struggling market. I'll put it simply when a business/market is struggling you don't go increasing sales tax to improve margins. Any increase is not a good move. We are in this mess because we keep adding increases to paywalls and moving the goal posts. It's not a good look. How many times do we have to play this dance for people to actually get that proposals like this work against encouraging players no matter how nominal you think the increase or impact is....
Definitely think more players and stronger market volume solve pretty much all of our problems. Doesn't look like this is going to pass anyway, but it was mainly just presented as an alternative to the 10% market fee suggestions which seemed kind of nutty to me.
Love ya work. Was not directing my comment at you but the broader community. We have to stop with these extra hoop/extra cost proposals, they are killing us one player at a time. If these kinds of proposals keep coming up it means there are people still not reading the room. :)
I get it and I try to do my best, but yea I think I dropped the ball on this one honestly. Looking into reworking the guidelines to prevent a situation like this again. Current guidelines are way to lax and they lead to me wasting a lot of time fielding gripes that probably shouldn't even be directed at the DAO and then spending a lot of time cleaning up the messes the proposals tend to make. It's just not worth the headache for me or the community.
Talking to the team about getting polling integrated into the in-game governance system in a non-intrusive way so that people can opt in to get alerts about them. Hopefully we can make that happen.
You do great things mate.
Clearly The issue here is Auto renting bots cancelling rentals
and re-listing when the market changes causing alot of strain and frustration to renters on the network. The same goes for those renting.
The solutions we seem to find is raise the $ or bar rather than addressing the problem.
If we want want to stop them doing that, make longer cooldowns on rental cancelations and introduce some form of re-listing/listing/cancelation cooldowns. Auto bots rental providers wont want to set up an auto renter so it cancels a rental to get a better market price if the rental is being rented for 10 days and they have to wait say 5 days to get the card back.
And selling rental spam will reduce if they have to wait 2 days to cancel undercut and re-list. Suddenly those people trying to rent out 50 of the same card or sell 200 cards might decide a more efficient approach is to stagger knowing they have a cooldown to consider.
Even better if they cancel a rented card, it goes into limbo and no rewards can be earnt from the renter or rental provider if they are the one who cancelled.
Likewise auto renters wont cancel their rentals for the same reason if it's a longer cooldown and they stand to lose out while waiting for the card to return.
You could even introduce a clause that the canceller forfeits their any remaining paid DEC in escrow on a cancelled rental and if they are happy to still do that, the DEC goes to Splinterlands.
E.G 1)Auto bot cancels a 5 DEC a day rental to get 10.
In the above scenario:
No DEC price increases to listings. Players win
Splinterlands gets paid for those wanting to continue such practices as a downpayment for excessive spam.
Network Spam decrease at least on the rental front.
Genuien renters/sellers etc unaffected by anyone continuing such practice by not having to pay more fees as Sellers are already losing 6% on a sale.
We want to discourage this practice and still reward genuine renters/providers/sellers, I think the solution lay in extending the cooldown rather than punish them along with the those causing the spam...The idea is to discourage the practice while not affecting those who plan to rent out or provide a rental.
That's where I see a solution. Not sure how it would go among the masses so I wont be pushing for it. I'll leave that for others to marinate on who have better influence and writing ability if they think there is a viable angle here.
At this point I think the issue is just kind of dead, but yea there's plenty of things the team could do to make the system more sustainable. I guess for now we just leave it alone and them handle it themselves. Ultimately, I think this is one of those times where the community wanted to get involved somewhere it probably shouldn't have I suppose.
1 DEC rental price is a much better use of time. It would actually make the rental market worthwhile again and could increase the price of cards.
Pricing and listing fees are just a tax on active players.
I have been playing/investing in this game from day one. What is the deal? The Splinterlands Team constantly disses the original investors and anyone that promotes this game.
Keep up with this 💩 and this game WILL DIE! It has one foot in the grave now, and these stupid-🫏 proposals are the banana peel on the other foot.
Cut it with the crap, sir! Take the suggestions listed in the other comments. The DAO does not belong to STEEMMONSTERS, INC. Comprende?
This problem is normally solved by having an api limit and charging for more if you exceed that limit.
Matt won't allow 1 DEC minimum for rentals (even though its a PASSED PROPOSAL) because he says it will be negative for new players. I disagree completely 1 DEC vs sub 1 DEC is still ridiculously cheap for any new player. Now PACK PRICES, I wish the same mentality would be applied!!! Anyway no way should we raise list costs while rental costs are not at all minimized.